it seems that the emergent church is picking up some steam here in central oregon…
as a guy in his 20’s (late 20’s) who works at a church and spends much of his time with others in their 20’s and teens, it seems that i am continually being faced with this thing called the emergent movement. as time goes on i find that i don’t even need to go out looking for it, but it comes to me, standing directly in front of my face. what do i mean? i have sitting on my desk right now a paper written by a local pastor, calling into question use of words like ‘infallible’ and ‘inerrant’ when speaking of the Word of God. though this pastor and church refuse to take the title emergent, their actions seem to be speaking more clearly than their public words. then take last night for example.
i had heard a couple of weeks ago that the first presbyterian church in bend would be hosting some type of ‘emergent rally’, though no details were given to me at the time and i wasn’t sure exactly what the ‘rally’ would consist of. on monday i attended a memorial service at the first presbyterian church and it reminded me of this soon-coming event. before the memorial service began i popped my head into the church office to inquire about this event, and found out about the church basement roadshow. what is the church basement roadshow? to boil it down, it’s a book tour. but its most likely different than any book tour any of us have ever encountered.
first of all, the authors, doug pagitt, tony jones, and mark scandrette, are promoting books they have recently published, dealing with and promoting the emergent church. we’ll get to that in a moment. but the other thing that makes this unlike any other book tour is that they’re doing it in 1908 big tent revival fashion. yes, 100 years ago.
now let me say right here that i’m not a promoter for, nor am i an advocate of, the emergent movement. why did i go? as i mentioned, i spend a fair amount of time with the ‘postmoderns’ that this movement is geared towards. as a sort of shepherd to them, i think (or should i say i know) that i feel responsible for being aware of what is going on, what things are grabbing for their attention, and what snares and traps are laid in front of them. and yes, i believe the emergent movement is just the type of snare or trap that has the potential to entangle and trip up many people, stopping any forward momentum, and stunting any spiritual growth.
so back to the show. to be honest, i must say that it was entertaining. seeing these men in 1908 clothing, singing, dancing, speaking, was entertaining. i was surprised, however, by those in attendance. i know that the emergent movement is strongest in the younger generations, but there seemed to be a lack of that crowd at the show last night. what i saw instead were many grandparents of the postmoderns. i guess the first presbyterian church did a good job of internally promoting this event. i would venture to say that many of those in attendance have never heard the names of doug pagitt, tony jones, or mark scandrette before this event, and have no clue as to their belief and stance on theology, the doctrine of heaven and hell, and so on. as i was considering things said by these men last night, it made me think of times i have been subjected to general anesthesia. due to broken bones, cut tendons, dislocated joints, oral surgeries, and the like, i have had to undergo general anesthesia several times. each time it has been the same. the needle is inserted and…nothing. then the doctor asks me to count down from 10. so i begin. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, and then, out. if i make it to 6 it’s a miracle. you see, i don’t notice anything happening, i don’t feel the drugs going through my body, but something is happening. it’s taking effect. pretty soon, without me even being aware of what’s going on, i’m out like a light. many of the things said by these men last night were like anesthesia. they mentioned the name of Jesus quite a bit, they talked about loving each other (including our enemies), they talked about ‘living in the way of Jesus.’ i don’t have any problem whatsoever with any of those things. but mixed into their monologues and readings were plenty of new age terms and thinking. the sad thing, i believe, is most of those in attendance didn’t have a clue about the anesthesia that was being doled out through the authors. in fact, in the future they’ll be more numb to and more willing to accept the things these men are promoting.
all that to say – beware. the deceiver can disguise himself as an angel of light, certainly he can disguise himself as a 1908 revivalist preacher. do your research. don’t assume things. “test all things, hold fast what is good.” (1 thess. 5:21)
I have been blessed by these authors and will go to the show in Dallas soon – what EXACTLY did they say that you are warning us against?
Great observations. Your analogy of anesthesia is a good one. It seem like a common characteristic of many of the big-name “emergents”… Pagitt, Jones, McLaren, Bell (although he denies association) seems to be their winsome style. The have a real seductive quality about them and when that is combined with their sweet pseudo-gospel they become all the more dangerous to the so-called “postmodern” who may be seeking alternatives to their parent’s expression of faith.
Chuck – Thanks for the comment. I checked out your site. Keep up the good work.
Casey – Thanks for your comment as well. I’m glad to answer your question regarding what was said that I’m warning you against. Let me first start by saying that I too have been challenged by different authors and speakers that would be considered emergent. I believe they are asking some good questions. Some of their questions have caused me to take a closer look at what I do and why I do it. The problem I have, though, is that they don’t believe there are any real answers to these questions they are raising. Instead, there are only more questions. Truth seems to be relative, and fact isn’t tangible, but rather based on circumstances. In most instances the questions they ask have firmed my stance on beliefs and doctrines I’ve held. I don’t claim to know everything, but I do believe that there are some areas where we need to “stand fast,” as the apostle Paul exhorts us to do several times throughout the New Testament (1Cr 16:13; Phl 1:27; Phl 4:1; 2Th 2:15).
As I mentioned in my post, the roadshow was quite entertaining. The guys are great speakers and engaging communicators. But I left thinking “trucker Frank” is supposed to be my role model as a Christian (divorced, failed suicide attempt, kicked out of his pastorate) and that I should write him in for President. My heart breaks for the guy, going through what he has gone through, but I don’t think I should be modeling myself after him. And Mark’s story of the Emperor was a bit confusing to me. Is hearing an unbeliever (sorry Tony, but that word is in my built in dictionary on my Mac) singing “Happy Birthday Jesus” the aim of Christian evangelism? After all, it seems that it doesn’t really matter what we believe, so long as we’re convinced it is right and we give it all we’ve got.
Ben,
Thanks for coming to the roadshow and also for your detailed reflection. I appreciate it a lot. I’m Nate… the guy who was looking pretty stupid standing up there in long johns and a cowboy hat. I would have to say that I am emergent and am seeking to establish a community of folks in Bend, Oregon who hold space that is safe for questions, pain, and wonderings, while at the same time taking very seriously Jesus as the incarnate God (the Word).
I have read the paper that you have sitting on your desk there and have found it very interesting. I’m wondering if you would be interested in sitting down and having a conversation about some of the issues that you have with emergent, etc. I have written a similar paper, which I would REALLY appreciate your feedback on. You can find it here: http://www.natebettger.com/about/my-statement-of-emergent/
I guess I feel strongly that doesn’t do us a lot of good to blog about our disagreements without being willing to sit down and talk about them too. I’m not interested in proving your wrong, but I would definitely like to hear where you are coming from. My contact info is on my blog.
Talk to you soon hopefully,
Nate Bettger
[...] Detailed review of the Church Basement Roadshow Jump to Comments Ben’s not a fan, but he has some good points. His blog entry can be found HERE. [...]
[...] Very Detailed description of Roadshow in Bend June 30, 2008 Posted by Nate in Uncategorized. Tags: church basement roadshow, emerging church trackback Ben’s not a fan, but he has some interesting points… and some that I definitely disagree with. His blog entry can be found HERE. [...]
Hey Nate – Thanks for the comment. I’m working on setting up a meeting with the author of the paper I referred to. I just received a reply to an email I sent a week ago, so hopefully he and I will be sitting down later this week. After that I’ll see if you and I can work out a time as well. One condition, though – no red union suits!
Ben,
I was also at the Roadshow and had some questions about some of the things that were said or at least implied by the authors. I also enjoyed the presentation of the books but did have some questions about the appropriateness of the “Emperor” story. But, I digress…I work with youth in the church and I struggle with trying to provide open space for those who are questioning and for those who are not. What I find about the emerging movement (I must say that I have not read anything by any of these men, save a couple of blogs) is that it does encourage you to ask questions, not so to never find what is truth (for you) but it gives people the space to find new ways to come to the old old story.
I think at its best the emerging movement is about allowing people space to hear what the Holy Spirit has in store for them. At its best it is about peeling back the layers of the convention and culture to find meaning in the Word of God and love from the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ.
Also, just to be a little snarky, I believe the Bible to be the authoritative Word of God but I do not believe it to be infallible.
Blessings,
Greg
they mentioned the name of Jesus quite a bit, they talked about loving each other (including our enemies), they talked about ‘living in the way of Jesus.’ i don’t have any problem whatsoever with any of those things. but mixed into their monologues and readings were plenty of new age terms and thinking.
It would be a lot more constructive, I think, if you gave particulars (ie, what terms and thinking are anti-Jesus and why). Because what you described—people talking about Jesus and loving eachother, etc, sounds pretty dang good!
Thanks so much for speaking the truth in love and having excellent discernment.
In Christ,
Andrea
I did not attend the Bend location of the Road show but was at one in
San Jose a few days earlier. I found the creativity and commitment of the three authors very inspiring and enlightening. Tony’s relating his personal experience with his intellectual approach to knowing Christ and his realization it was more about loving others than about having the “right” ideas about theology, the Bible, and Jesus; Doug’s emotional reaction to the story of Jesus and his struggle with the “right thinking” approach to being a Christian; and Mark’s telling of the story of connecting with and showing love to the least of these in the person of the Emperor in a way he had probably never experienced; all told me more about living as a follower of Jesus than anything I have ever experienced in a traditional church setting. If we are to judge the fruits of the Spirit by how many people are loved, how many are cared for, how many are hearing the story, and how many choose to be open to the love of God in their lives, then the emerging church seems to be very much in alignment with Jesus’s life and messages.
So Ben, other than they might not have used the words you would have used, what is it about your perceptions of the emerging church, or this event specifically, that you find to be outside the Gospel and Jesus’ life and words?
You seem to imply that this is somehow leading people away from the true faith. In what ways and from what parts of the faith?
I went to the road show with a couple of my friends from “Journey” a Sunday night gathering of young adults at New Hope Church. Personally, I almost walked out. Not because of the content mind you, I just can’t get into the vaudeville thing. Most of the young adults we were with did like it though, so i kept my mouth shut. I wasn’t sure what to expect when I got there, but the thing that dissapointed me the most was the pimping of their books. I personally would have liked it better if they would have said “hey we’re having a meeting regarding our thoughts and beliefs on the “emergent” movement. That’s just me though. Some people like that kind of stuff. I think the traditional church could learn alot from a movement “emerging, emergent whatever you want to call it) that believes in going out to the people, rather than putting up programs to draw people in. If they came away from the “revival” feeling touched by the spirit…then “God be praised” “Alleluia brother!”
Have a great Spirit filled day!
Interesting. I didn’t know there was much of an emergent movement in Bend–I guess I haven’t lived here long enough. One of the better sermons on the emergent movement I’ve heard recently is from Mark Driscoll.
@Greg, I’m curious what specifically about the Bible you do not find infallible. Perhaps it depends on your definition of the term, but I’ve always seen belief in the truth, reliability, and authority of scripture as a cornerstone of Christian doctrine. Without it, things seem to unravel. Is it that the human authors are fallible? That truth or details were lost in translation?
Thanks to all for the comments and feedback. I apologize if I had been too general in my first post, but hopefully there will be more clarity and detail in these comments. I thought I added a little more clarity in my comment above, but I’ll give you another instance that troubled me that night.
Doug Pagitt shared about how he came to the Lord. It was at a passion play in an old converted theatre. After realizing his need for Jesus, he went into a back room to speak with a counselor about this need. Once in the back room, his attention was brought to a book (”Steps to Peace with God” I believe) that he had a great disagreement with. Remember the picture he showed us that night? Let me refresh your memory (and inform those of you who weren’t in attendance).
On one side of a great rift was a man. On the other side of this great rift was God. Separation. Man can’t reach God. He can’t jump the fissure, can’t fly over it to meet God. He is helpless. The next image Doug showed us was this same picture, but now with a cross forming the bridge between man and God. Man is no longer separated by God, because He has access to God by the cross of Jesus Christ. Good news! But wait! Doug didn’t agree with that illustration. No, he took the next several minutes to argue how this illustration didn’t line up with his experience. He argued that he never felt far from God, but uncomfortably close. Huh? If you were uncomfortably close to God, what do you need Jesus for? If you don’t need Jesus to bridge that gap, why did you go to the back room to speak with a counselor?
Doesn’t the bible teach us that man has been separated from God as a result of sin (Gen. 3:22-24;Eph. 2:13-19). And really, why do we need Jesus, since (according to Pagitt) God “interacts” the same with us, no matter what or who we believe in?
Let’s see. Jesus is God. Part of the Trinity. Can’t some people relate more, understand more, love more, or believe more to God the Father, or God the Spirit, than God the Son? It is still all God. It was always about God for Jesus. Jesus is the way to God because he is God. Jesus is the embodiment of what God looks like in human flesh. What is wrong with knowing God through God directly?
John 14:6
Ben,
The best response I can give is part of a sermon preached by our pastor at First Pres. last summer on the most difficult questions in the Christian Faith.
Our scripture passage today contains the single sentence that troubles more Christians than perhaps any other in the Bible. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me.”
How could Jesus whose love was so inclusive say something so exclusive?
How could Jesus who went to parties with prostitutes and sinners draw such a rigid line in the sand? These words sound so uncharacteristic of Jesus.
There’s nothing in the life of Jesus that I recognize as rigid and exclusionary.
In fact, the life of Jesus embodied unconditional love, astonishing forgiveness, radical hospitality, and inclusiveness.
Yet, these words of Jesus from scripture have frequently been taken out of context to JUDGE others . . . these very words have been used to argue that Christians are right and all others wrong . . . that our faith is MORE true than the faith of others . . . our way is the ONLY way.
Many Christians interpret Jesus’ words through our 21st century WESTERN eyes and use his words to make exclusive truth claims.
Today, I want to put these words of Jesus in the context in which he actually spoke them and see if we might see these words in a new light.
The first thing to remember is that in this story Jesus is foremost trying to COMFORT the disciples He’s just eaten the Last Supper with them. He’s washed their feet and told them to do the same by serving each other. He’s told them that one of them will betray him and Peter will deny him three times. He’s commanded them to love one another. Can you imagine the mood of the room after this?
And then he says to them, “But don’t worry. Trust God trust me. God has lots of room. And like a good host, I’m going to get your place ready for you. In fact, I’ll escort you there. Heck, in fact, you already know THE WAY.”
And, Thomas, Oh Thomas, ever a literalist always practical, Thomas fails to understand that this is more symbolic language than LITERAL and he says,
“I’m so confused. We don’t know where you are going. How can we know the way to get there?” It is to THIS question that Jesus gently says, “I AM THE WAY Thomas and the truth and the life.”
Consider the context for a minute. Is this the time you would imagine anyone, much less Jesus saying, “Hey, listen up fellas! I’m it! I’m the ONLY way! So you better believe in me exactly the way I want you to believe in me, or else. Anyone who doubts or questions or thinks anything else is done for! Got that?” I really don’t believe that’s the message Jesus was trying to convey here to them or to us.
The immediate context of his words, the setting of the story, the nature of Jesus’ life leads me to believe there’s another message at work.
It’s helpful and important to know that at the time the Gospel of John was written (many years after the death of Jesus), the fledgling Christian community was not known as “Christians.” They were known simply as “FOLLOWERS OF THE WAY.” Jesus’ words here are not addressed to people of other religions or people with no religion. They are addressed to the PEOPLE OF THE WAY, the first disciples, the early church, those who would much later be called “Christian.”
The words of Jesus we heard today are not meant to be exclusive or to be used to judge or challenge other religions. The irony is these words are actually meant to challenge us – those of us who are already followers of Jesus – FOLLOWERS OF THE WAY.
And I want to suggest they challenge us in at least two ways – First, we are challenged not to water down or apologize for this message. As Christians, we are following a particular WAY, And don’t be mistaken – it is a RADICAL way. While I don’t believe we can or should claim that our way is better or more legitimate that other ways.
I also don’t think we can or should say that our Way doesn’t matter . . .
We call ourselves Christians . . . those who follow Jesus . . . those who bear the name of Christ. (although it’s interesting the word Christian carries so much baggage – an emerging trend in churches is to avoid the word and simply use “Followers of Jesus!”
Presbyterian theologian, Shirley Guthrie, suggests that we ask ourselves who is this Jesus who says “I am the way.”
Guthrie says, “He is the One who also says in John 10.16, “I have other sheep that do not belong to the fold. I include them also. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.” Who is this Jesus who says, “I am the way?”
He is the friend of the sinful, the friend of unbelieving, different – believing people, people who were constantly excluded and rejected by those in the religious establishment who assumed they had all the answers.
Who is this Jesus who says “I am the way?” He is the One who believed that caring for the needy and the suffering was far more important than conforming to the requirements of moral and theological orthodoxy.
Who was this Jesus who said, “I am the way?”
He is the One who didn’t ask his followers to believe six things about him before breakfast. There was no test. There was no doctrinal examination required. He simply invited people to walk with him . . . to follow him . . . to follow his way.
Professor Guthrie argues, “Christianity is our religion. It is our theological and our faith home. But to follow the way of Jesus is to be obligated to listen with respect to people of other faiths and learn the truth that they know.
In our evangelism, in our sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ. We are not to argue the superiority of our religion or the exclusivity of our truth, but we are to share what we have come to believe and trust and to be open to receive the same from the other.
How can anyone ever claim to know enough to be sure of the mind of God?
That’s why I begin every sermon with, “Startle us, O God!”
There was a theologian five centuries ago, Nicholas of Cusa whose big contribution to theology was the notion he called “learned ignorance.”
He wrote “God is the unknown infinite who dwells in light inaccessible and so God’s greatest gift to us is ‘to know that we do not know!’ Nothing more perfect comes to a person. To know that you do not know is the beginning of wisdom.”
At the very heart of our faith tradition is an intentional modesty and humility before the incomprehensibility and mystery of God, a clear confession that we know that we do not know. So, how can anyone possibly claim that Christianity offers the only way to God?
But what Christianity does offer unapologetically is Jesus – the One who said, “I am the way, the truth, the life.”
That man, Jesus, we trust, IS Truth – Not words about him, Not doctrines that attempt to explain him, Not churches that use his name, Not religious leaders that arrogantly claim to speak and act for him, But him, He, himself, is truth.
What does that mean?
Theologian Paul Tillich said, it means that Jesus, the true, the genuine, the ultimate reality is present; in other words, God is present, unveiled, revealed, in infinite depth.
As Christians, Jesus is our truth, and if we claim him as Savior, If we trust in him, if we follow him, if we listen to him because he is truth, We will not use our religion to exclude others, Because he didn’t. We will never use our religion to judge others, Because he didn’t. We will do everything we can to forgive and accept and extend compassion to our neighbors, to love our enemies, to welcome strangers, because this IS the way, the truth, the life he asked us to follow.
One of the unique aspects of truth we affirm in Jesus is that he is the only one who refers to God as Father – “No one comes to the Father except through me.” To the contrary of what many claim, I trust don’t believe, Jesus is being exclusive here as he is describing an intimate relationship with God that is possible.
Through Jesus, we’re introduced to a God, not distant, removed, untouchable, out there . . .But amazingly a God we can know and trust . . . a God we are told who knows us, forgives us, loves us unconditionally . . .
This love I have experienced in my life . . .
This love has turned my life upside-down and has given my life meaning and purpose. I want to share the joy and hope I know in Christ with others . . . I want to share the joy I know with you! But I never assume people of other religions know any less joy than I do; Their experience of God may certainly be different than mine but not inferior to my experience. And to be open to receive their joy may very well enhance the joy I know.
Everything I know and understand and experience is that God is an both/and kind of God not an either/or kind of God. We are the ones that insist on thing s being either/or. Conservative and liberal are not helpful labels. They are divisive – the real question is are we open or are we closed.
God’s love revealed in Jesus is larger, higher, broader, deeper than anything we can possibly imagine . . . as the Apostle Paul said, “May you grasp the love of Christ that is beyond knowledge.”
Jesus didn’t say you must believe these six things about me. He didn’t administer a test. He didn’t require you pass a doctrinal examination.
Unlike the Pharisees, he didn’t draw a line around himself to define who was “in” and who was “out.” He didn’t worry where you’ve been or what you struggle to believe – or not believe. Jesus simply said, “Follow me!”
Imagine, just imagine, what the world might look like if we, the church, spent less time arguing about what we believe, about who’s right and who’s wrong, what’s in and what’s out, and we seriously set ourselves in this new year to the task of passionately following the way of Jesus – Passionately giving our hearts to the radical love we know in Christ – Follow me . . . Follow this way, Jesus said, And you will find life- Real life- Full life- Meaningful life – A life filled with God’s everlasting, incomprehensible love!
Thanks be to God!
@Bob
You referenced John 10:16 in your comment. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees here and its generally understood that he is speaking in the context of jews and gentiles (gentile being the other fold as in Rom 11).
Jesus is not exclusionary in the sense that he does not prohibit anyone from following him. But the same Jesus also said:
“go and sin no more”, (to an adulteress)
“unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins”, (to pharisees)
“sell what you possess and give to the poor”, (to a wealthy man)
“you are of your father the devil” (again to the pharisees)
So, yes, in certain contexts and instances jesus has required specific beliefs or behavior. Or, at the very least, the behavior should be the fruit of following Jesus.
Bob, I would pose this (2-part) question to you … in Matt 7, Jesus says:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”
a. what is the will of his father?
b. why does Jesus exclude these people who claim to follow him?
Ben, any chance you are free to meet up yet? Send me an email: bettger2@gmail.com. Granted I have sort of disengaged from this stream of commenting, but I would love to continue in person.
Looking forward to it,
Nate
Interesting thoughts. I’m concerned about current trends in the emergent church, and I highly recommend Justin Taylor’s message from New Attitude on it. The trend to blend Christianity with “other truths” from other faiths, with a dose of new age thinking, I have a feeling will lead to the apostasy of the church of the last days.
Ben, I recommend you listen to messages from Ravi Zacharias. Jesus claimed to be not just “the Way” in the sense that He taught “the Way” of God, but that He was the Son, our only suitable sacrifice thus the only One who could atone for our sins. Did Mohammed die for our sins? Did Buddha? No. He said there is no salvation in any other, and to make an exclusive claim to truth is not the opposite of love (”intolerance”), but was the very heart of love. Truth, by definition, is exclusive. Either Jesus spoke truth and was the only way to God, or He wasn’t, and we have no hope. But if He was, then the only loving thing He could say to those He reached out to, the poor, the tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. was the truth, that salvation and eternal joy could only be found in Him.
Sorry, I meant to address the last comment to Bob, not Ben.
One more note. Bob, you said, “Many Christians interpret Jesus’ words through our 21st century WESTERN eyes and use his words to make exclusive truth claims.”
To that I’d like to paraphrase Mr. Zacharias’s response to a similar objection. The western mind, some say, sometimes can’t grasp the easterner’s ability to accept two opposing beliefs as equally valid. The Westerner says, “It must be either-or.” The easterner says, “No, it can be both-and.” So Ravi responded, “So what you’re saying is, I must use either the either-or system or the both-and system, isn’t that right? And may I remind you that even in India, we must look both ways before crossing the street. It’s either the bus, or me, not both of us.”